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> Why no methanol?
Box
post Mar 26 2011, 08:21 PM
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Danny
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Not sure bout all clubs which put on burnout comps, but Pirie doesn't allow the use of methanol, why's that?


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SlimSkidZ
post Mar 26 2011, 08:24 PM
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Good question as most of the best burnout cars in Australia run the stuff and it's safer than petrol...maybe it's because they use it in speedway!


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scott
post Mar 26 2011, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (SlimSkidZ @ Mar 26 2011, 09:24 PM) *
Good question as most of the best burnout cars in Australia run the stuff and it's safer than petrol...maybe it's because they use it in speedway!



I think it could be a saftey thing, doesn't methanol once it catches on fire burn clear and petrol doesn't??
Not sure????
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AB361
post Mar 27 2011, 07:42 AM
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basicly from what i understand yes the clear burning of it as clubs arnt set up to handle it
also its in the rule book cant be used and i think insurance reasons also come in to it

pete
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Dad W51
post Mar 27 2011, 07:55 AM
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methanol was banned in dirt circuit years ago, because we didnt have
any trained personel (flaggies come and go all the time) and back then you could not see it burning
(not sure whether that has changed) plus we didnt have the right fire fighting equipment.not all club had the cfs or mfs on hand.
before this causes an uproar ,hear me out. i know water will puy methanol fires out. at the whyalla club we had the use of
the whyalla speedways fire unit (which i was a commitee person of we had a 1000l tank on a trailer with
a fire fighing pump ,hose and approved nosle there was also a chemical which was in a tank on the
side which turned the water in to foam, this is what was required by speedway 20 odd years ago)
this could be deployed very quickly. i cant remember the price of the unit but it wasnt cheap
so i guess that the cost of the unit plus training, well the rest is history


carl


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Dad W51
post Mar 27 2011, 07:56 AM
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PS

maybe the insurance company may of had a hand in the ban,


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fastracer47
post Mar 27 2011, 10:24 AM
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Once again a some thing that has been Association policy for over 15 years is raised and the question is asked why is this this way

With out trying to start a HUGE bun fight Ill try to explain it.
As President of the Association at the time the decision to ban Methanol was taken I can assure DADW51 that the Insurance Company had no input in any way shape or form into the decision, in fact the drivers of the idea to ban Methanol was the Whyalla Club !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All of the other points in DAD W51 comments where discussed and or raised in the discussion around this topic.
Apart from these points as raised by DADW51 the two other big points that were raised from memory where
1. Cost
Now I know every one will say its Less than half the cost of petrol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree but you use more than twice the amount in a race so it turns out more expensive.
2.Parity
Can you buy this stuff at your local service station out of a pump on the morning of a race day in Orooroo, Peterborough, Ceduna, Roxby, Lincoln or even at Truro????????? and obviously the answer is no you cant.
Realistically its only available in 200 litre drums from a few places none of which I know off are country based so you do not have a level playing field ( Or Parity ) hence it was banned.
I really do hope this explains why the decision was taken


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Box
post Mar 27 2011, 12:57 PM
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So there's no real reason why it can't be used for the club's burnout comps? Like what Slim said, alot of the high end burnout cars around the country use methanol, but won't be allowed to join in at our comp as it says ya not allowed to use it.

If we wanted to allow the use of methanol at our burnout comps, is it something we HAVE to take to the association, or is it just something we can discuss at our club meeting, seeing as it's not for dirt circuit racing?

I think the 'no methanol' rule has only been on the last few nom forms. I remember there was a few cars which were at the earlier comps that ran the stuff, not sure if anything happened with them or not to cause the banning of it in comps.


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omega79
post Mar 27 2011, 01:23 PM
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Just allowing the use is over simplifing it a little bit. It is not just forget petrol and tip in methanol. The fuel system needs to be altered, fuel lines may need to altered aswell as fuel pump because of the volume that needs to be delivered to motor. Setup properly yes it will inprove performance. For safety if not all cars use it then the cars that do would require identification stating such on the car. Fire safety methanol burns with a very translucent blue to clear flame, very easy to walk into or such and the first thing you would know is the burning feeling. It is available in smaller than 200 litre quantities, methanol is very hyperbaric and atracks condensation from prolonged storage, so buying 200 litres and not using reasonably quickly will result in the remaining having to be disposed of. For our speedway cars we purchase in 20 litre lots, most times only carry 40 litres in total to a race meeting.
Would be good to be used but would need to be accross the board will all using or none using it, too much potential for personal injurie to the track helpers and also there would be a requirement for training in handling techniques.


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Box
post Mar 27 2011, 02:58 PM
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QUOTE (omega79 @ Mar 27 2011, 02:23 PM) *
Just allowing the use is over simplifing it a little bit. It is not just forget petrol and tip in methanol. The fuel system needs to be altered, fuel lines may need to altered aswell as fuel pump because of the volume that needs to be delivered to motor. Setup properly yes it will inprove performance. For safety if not all cars use it then the cars that do would require identification stating such on the car. Fire safety methanol burns with a very translucent blue to clear flame, very easy to walk into or such and the first thing you would know is the burning feeling. It is available in smaller than 200 litre quantities, methanol is very hyperbaric and atracks condensation from prolonged storage, so buying 200 litres and not using reasonably quickly will result in the remaining having to be disposed of. For our speedway cars we purchase in 20 litre lots, most times only carry 40 litres in total to a race meeting.
Would be good to be used but would need to be accross the board will all using or none using it, too much potential for personal injurie to the track helpers and also there would be a requirement for training in handling techniques.


I don't mean use it for racing, but for the BURNOUT comps. I don't think any other comps ban it, but we do!

Here's some info about the safety aspect of it off the wikipedia page.

QUOTE
Methanol is far more difficult to ignite than gasoline and burns about 60% slower. A methanol fire releases energy at around 20% of the rate of a gasoline fire, resulting in a far cooler flame. This results in a far less dangerous fire that is easier to contain with proper protocols. Unlike gasoline, water is acceptable and even preferred as a fire suppressant, since this both cools the fire and rapidly dilutes the fuel below the concentration where it will maintain self-flammability. These facts mean that, as a vehicle fuel, methanol has significant safety advantages over gasoline.[11] Ethanol shares many of these same advantages, but at a lower fuel-energy efficiency.

Since methanol vapour is heavier than air, it will linger close to the ground or in a pit unless there is good ventilation, and if the concentration of methanol is above 6.7% in air it can be lit by a spark, and will explode above 54 F / 12 C. Once ablaze, an undiluted methanol fire gives out very little visible light making it potentially very hard to see the fire or even estimate its size in bright daylight, although in the vast majority of cases, existing pollutants or flammables in the fire (such as tires or asphalt) will color and enhance the visibility of the fire. Ethanol, natural gas, hydrogen, and other existing fuels offer similar fire-safety challenges, and standard safety and fire-fighting protocols exist for all such fuels. [12]

Post-accident environmental damage mitigation is facilitated by the fact that low-concentration methanol is biodegradable, low toxicity, and non-persistent in the environment. Post-fire cleanup often merely requires large additional amounts of water to further dilute the spilled methanol followed by vacuuming or absorption recovery of the fluid. Any methanol that unavoidably escapes into the environment will have little long-term impact, and with sufficient dilution will rapidly biodegrade with little to no environmental damage due to toxicity. A methanol spill that combines with an existing benzene (gasoline) spill can cause the mixed methanol/benzene spill to persist about 30% to 35% longer than the benzene alone would have done.


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SlimSkidZ
post Mar 27 2011, 05:04 PM
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To sum it all up from my point of view only, it all boils down to "scared of change without knowing the facts"...I know of some drag type cars and several top end burnout cars that would attract quite a few more spectators to a "burnout" comp if they were included as guests on the flyer. But as these cars run methanol they can't run up here because dirt circuit banned the use of it 15 or 20 years ago!

Many top end burnout cars use Methanol mainly because it helps to keep their engine temp down.

If I was trapped in a car that was on fire with fuel spilling I know what fuel I'd prefer it to be. The type that has harder ignition, a colder flame and not as rapid spread, and a very small chance of exploding.

As I've said before the rules work well for the honest ones but there are some that regularly "bend" them.



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Roy928tt
post Mar 27 2011, 07:11 PM
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Using methanol in dirt circuit cars goes against everything that dirt circuit stands for. It is expensive, and can not be used in standard engines, thus adding to the expense of engines, whilst adding nothing to the racing spectacle or experience ( although I do recall it smells nice).

Lets stick with the KISS principal

Cheers Roy


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008
post Mar 27 2011, 07:28 PM
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I suppose you have to ask what are we doing here.
A Burnout Comp, great to attract spectators and create dollars for the Dirt Circuit Club.
Who's Insurance are we using, and what was the intentions on gaining this Insurance.
I would believe it was for the intentions on Dirt Circuit Racing.
If we want to add a few Burn Out Comps. Lets do it. BUT, Lets play by the rules set buy the ADCCSA.
It all come down to 'duty of care' and setting guidelines to follow.

Good to see questions asked, But lets not use Methanol or Avgas or any other Leaded fuel.
Its not all about being scared, living out in the sticks, in remote areas or not being able to get it at your local servo on a Sunday.
Its about keeping a safe environment and looking after everyone. And keeping a main focus on Dirt Circuit racing.
That cheap motorsport we want to enjoy.

But lets also keep in mind that Burnout Comps provide an income for some clubs. So, let em do it. In conjunction with our rules.
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SlimSkidZ
post Mar 27 2011, 07:45 PM
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Box was asking the question about burnout comps Roy, not for use in dirt circuit as such.

As for abiding by dirt circuit rules at burnout comps, what about the many cars I've seen at burnout comps at dirt circuit tracks running LPG...isn't that fuel banned in dirt circuit as well?

As I said before, rules work well for the honest ones. There has also been cars at burnout comps (and D/C races) using AVGAS. As long as you have rules there will always be someone trying to bend them.

While competing at one burnout comp at a dirt circuit track myself, a mate and my family witnessed a fellow competitor skull his bourbon can and get in his car to line back up for a skid. He later placed in the finals, so like I said, rules only work for the honest ones while not being enforced across the board.

How many drivers have had their fuel tested at a race meet? or breath tested before a dirt circuit race? or had their holley checked on a street stock? the list goes on...


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AB361
post Mar 27 2011, 07:59 PM
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im guessing you could use methonal if we had the right saftey items in place

im guessing if the club runs puts it through the assocation and supplys all the saftey fire gear etc and there cost it may be able to be used

the main reason you could not use it for burn out comps is most if not all clubs arnt set up or trained to have it there

fully under other burnout comps amy use it but i bet they have the saftey gear and trained ppl there to deal with it

otherwise i doubt they get insuranne to cover it.

it may not have been a insurance issue when it was banned but reading helping with gaining our insurance we wopuld not be covered in the new cover.

so again id say they would have to find new insurance.

yes some ppl still use it and cheat that will happen in every sport we just have to police as best we can

pete
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SlimSkidZ
post Mar 27 2011, 08:18 PM
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Methanol fire: (put out with water)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnDX4FpDAzQ&NR=1

Petrol fire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZbFKG1zr8s...mp;feature=fvwp


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Box
post Mar 27 2011, 09:23 PM
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If we can't due to our insurance well that makes sense then. Does the policy state we can't run methanol? Or does is HAVE to say we CAN run methanol....I dunno how any of it works.


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008
post Mar 29 2011, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (SlimSkidZ @ Mar 27 2011, 08:45 PM) *
Box was asking the question about burnout comps Roy, not for use in dirt circuit as such.

As for abiding by dirt circuit rules at burnout comps, what about the many cars I've seen at burnout comps at dirt circuit tracks running LPG...isn't that fuel banned in dirt circuit as well?

As I said before, rules work well for the honest ones. There has also been cars at burnout comps (and D/C races) using AVGAS. As long as you have rules there will always be someone trying to bend them.

While competing at one burnout comp at a dirt circuit track myself, a mate and my family witnessed a fellow competitor skull his bourbon can and get in his car to line back up for a skid. He later placed in the finals, so like I said, rules only work for the honest ones while not being enforced across the board.

How many drivers have had their fuel tested at a race meet? or breath tested before a dirt circuit race? or had their holley checked on a street stock? the list goes on...


So what you are saying is that- at previous Burnout Comps, held at a Dirt Circuit Club in South Australia, there have been Methanol used, Avgas, LPG with compressed fuel and sealed tanks, consumption of alcohol, no breath testing, anything else?
And prize money

Just remember that there are Association delegates on here, watching what is written.
Bout time some Clubs pulled their finger out.
I have known of a driver consuming alcohol, then competing in a feature race. He is now banned for life and the owners of the car were banned for 12 months.
All Clubs should own a breath tester, why are they not using it?

This is all sounding like crap, but the current insurance policy was hard to get. Lets not make it harder next time.

Where do the rules stand for Burnout cars?
Are they even scrutineered and deemed safe to attempt this single vehicle demonstration?
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SlimSkidZ
post Mar 29 2011, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (8 @ Mar 29 2011, 06:24 PM) *
So what you are saying is that- at previous Burnout Comps, held at a Dirt Circuit Club in South Australia, there have been Methanol used, Avgas, LPG with compressed fuel and sealed tanks, consumption of alcohol, no breath testing, anything else?
And prize money


Where do the rules stand for Burnout cars?
Are they even scrutineered and deemed safe to attempt this single vehicle demonstration?


What I'm saying is that at one of the burnout comps I had a look under the bonnet of a car that gave out a different smell from the exhaust and it had a belt driven fuel pump feeding the injection from a tank in the engine bay. Later when chatting to him he explained why he bought Methanol in 20 lt. drums even though it would be cheaper to buy a 44 gallon drum.

I have competed against several cars at dirt circuit burnout comps which were clearly running LPG. (one asked on here if it was alright before he entered)

As I stated before and it was brought up on here before, we seen one competitor drinking bourbon cans then going out to compete. I was told it was common knowledge that everyone was breath tested at the start of the comp but that was the only time, leaving plenty of time to knock a few back between rounds.

Burnout cars are scrutineered before all comps but I am unsure what they are looking for at these comps. From my involvement with and attending national comps I am sure there has been many cars that should've been left on the trailers.

These are some of the reasons I no longer compete at these comps.


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AB361
post Mar 29 2011, 06:40 PM
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slim sopunds like there needs to be a set of rules for burnout cars then ??

wouldnt have to be overdone just some basic checks and saftey gear


pete
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